The Promised Head-Crusher Vs. the Nephilim | What Are the Nephilim? Part 1 -- Mark Russak (Ep 219)

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Foreign.

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You're in touch with episode 217 of Jesus Smart, the podcast coming up.

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How did Giants Enter the Human Bloodline?

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With Mark Russick.

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Welcome friend.

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I'm Brian Del Turco.

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I believe that Jesus Christ knows how our lives work best and that he is passionate about developing his followers as intimate friends and co agents in his kingdom.

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And if you want to go further with King Jesus and his enterprise, this is the podcast for you.

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How are you doing?

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I hope that all is well and right around the middle of January is that time to renew your momentum and your sense of direction.

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How do I know this?

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Well, this isn't my first rodeo going through the month of January.

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I've already felt it yet again this month and frankly, whatever time of year you're listening to this, I just heard this past week, I, I believe it was 48% of podcasts listening is from previous issues or back episodes.

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And so whatever time you're listening to this, you know we go through cycles all through the year and there are those times we just need to pause, sort of collect ourselves, maybe return to our journal, probably open that prayer closet door that Jesus spoke of and focus in prayer.

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That's the key.

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Then come out of the closet and execute that fierce mastery under God that's required for you to fully experience your life story in Jesus and contribute to the greater story, the story of Christ, the story of his kingdom.

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I'm excited about the episode today with Mark Russick and the topic.

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Before we get there, we have a quick new episode feature called Jesus Dynamics, Applying the Jesus Way to all of Life.

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We all have a promised land.

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We are destined to possess individually and together with others in the body of Christ.

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You have new promised territory in front of you right now, today, this week, this month, during this season.

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Proverbs 16:9.

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The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

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Mind really means heart here in the Hebrew.

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The inner man.

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The inclination, thought, reflection, the seat of emotions and passions.

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You plan your way, but the Lord directs your steps.

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Steps in the Hebrew meaning pace or your stride.

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The Lord has created the heart and your heart knows.

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Now, I know that the heart can be desperately wicked and deceive you, but God gives us a new heart in Christ and he circles us back to his design.

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So listening to the heart is good under Christ.

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You do know that before original sin there was an original blessing, right?

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Just take that first step.

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The Lord works with us as we step into the promises.

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Go ahead and plan your way to the best of your ability.

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Trusting in what you are sensing from the Lord.

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He will then direct your movement as you step.

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That more accurate sense of direction and alignment is in the stepping.

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More is given as you take your first steps.

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Paul said that we walk by faith, not by sight.

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And let's remember that great promise from Proverbs chapter 3 and verse 6.

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In all of your ways, acknowledge him from the Hebrew, know him by direct, intimate contact, and he will make your paths straight, direct and smooth.

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I remember a class I was sitting in in seminary and the professor standing up there and referring to Genesis chapters one through saying something like this, I'm just not sure about these chapters.

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And what he kind of meant was, there could be a lot of symbolic things here, maybe mythological, and it's really not a literal reading that we're interested so much in.

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Well, I take a different opinion about that.

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And I stand in the school of scholarship and interpretation that would say that we take a literal reading of.

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Of the scripture in Genesis 1:11, just as we do the rest of the Bible, including that intriguing passage that we're focusing on today, Genesis 6:1:4.

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Now, I would like to present to you two hermeneutics.

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Okay, just to get a little nerdy, why don't you nerd out with me?

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We need some more Kingdom nerds.

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I think a hermeneutic is a model or sort of a pattern or template of interpretation, how you approach the Scripture.

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And.

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And I'm a firm believer, number one, in a hermeneutic that is historical, cultural, and grammatical in nature, we look at the historical context, the cultural context of the Scripture, and we pay deep attention to the grammatical interpretation, word studies, what the Hebrew means, what the Greek means, how it's used scripturally, and how the Bible interprets itself.

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And I would love for you to consider wedding that hermeneutic with.

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Wedding it with the hermeneutic of the Holy Spirit, who provides increasing illumination and understanding of the Scripture.

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You see, the Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of Scripture.

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Paul says this to Timothy.

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God breathed.

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But on our end of the equation, as we engage the Scripture, the Holy Spirit's ministry to us is one of illumination.

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And so in first John, we have John saying that we all have an anointing from the Holy One.

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And we know.

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We know things, and we know them increasingly through the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

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It's very important for us, as we engage the Scriptures at a deeper level, to do it in community with others now and even in community with those who have preceded Us reading their writings, looking at commentaries, looking at good, solid Bible study helps.

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Hugh Ross is a Christian astrophysicist, the founder of Reasons to Believe.

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And he says that we need a deepening understanding of nature, which is provisional.

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Provisional meaning our understanding is arranged for the present about something in nature, but it's possibly changed later with more information and understanding.

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That is the scientific method.

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I would like to add that our understanding of history can be provisional.

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As we gain more materials, more information, more archaeology, more historical sources, our understanding of history can be refined into a more accurate understanding of what happened.

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So taking this deepening understanding of nature and history and then wedding it with the supremacy of our deeper understanding of Scripture.

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And here we blend deep study and also an openness to the ministry of the Holy Spirit for illumination as we engage the Word.

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You see, we need both the Word and the wind.

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And so we approach Scripture humbly open, and we approach our understanding of nature and history in the same way.

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At the end of this episode today, and this is part one of our conversation with Mark Russick, we have a short clip by Dr. Hugh Ross, Ph.D. astrophysicist, Christian apologist and founder of Reasons to Believe.

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And I encourage you to go to jesussmart.com giants to see a video with Dr. Hugh Ross and one or two other Christian academics supporting this view that we're putting forth today on Genesis 6:1:4.

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And you can also see Scriptures there and links to other resources.

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And so I'm excited to bring you today's guest, Mark Russick.

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He's a professional who works in media, and he's a deep student of the Word and he's an excellent teacher.

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And I look forward to future interaction with Mark.

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And Mark is going to give us an introduction into this topic today, sort of a survey introduction, which is going to call us to deeper study.

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Now, why study this?

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I like the saying, when in doubt, zoom out.

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This is big picture world stuff, in my opinion, and it very well may shape your understanding and deepen it concerning spiritual warfare, prayer, and your own unique kingdom contribution that you bring to the table.

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Well, I have bloviated long enough.

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Let's get right to it with Mark Russick.

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I am very motivated today about this topic that we're bringing to you and the guests that we have.

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We're going to be talking about, believe it or not, the very real possibility that angels impregnated women way back in early Genesis.

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And we're going to look at how this could possibly inform our faith, our prayer life, our point of view, our worldview maybe scale up the kingdom contribution that we make.

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Thanks for carving out some time today to come on the podcast.

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I appreciate it.

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Delighted to be here.

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Thanks for the invitation.

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Yeah.

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We met through Steven Lauterbach and I began to look at some of Mark's content.

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And I've always instinctively believed what we're going to be talking today about out of Genesis 6.

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I haven't done in depth, super in depth study in this area.

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I think that our guest has.

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But before we get into that, Mark, just give our listeners a point of reference about you and what you do, a little bit about your background.

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Sure.

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I was raised in the Catholic Church, traditional altar boy, Catholic grammar school, Catholic high school.

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And instinctively, as time went by, you know, I believe I had that relationship with Jesus.

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But I thought that there was more than what I was, what I was learning at that point.

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So it began a journey of about 10 years where I started going to different churches, different denominations.

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Inevitably, I felt like the Lord was drawing me, that there was more.

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And roughly around the time I was.

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30.

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I just gave myself to the Lord.

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I just could not walk away from the truth of his word.

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And I was just hungry for more of Him.

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And then since I began the journey of a lifetime, that is just thrilling to me professionally.

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I've been broadcasting media.

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I've been involved in various forms of media for most of my professional life.

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And so what happened was I wound up leading a study that because of COVID we wound up having to go online and we were covering various topics.

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And you know, through these people, they encouraged me to kind of get this information out there.

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One of the things, and I say this very humbly, that I believe the Lord has given me a gift as a teacher.

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Okay.

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So I wanted to use those gifts and in my studies and make presentations that makes it clear my mission is really twofold.

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It's one to engage the veracity of Christ and scripture and the reality of that, but also by addressing the questions that the non believers have, whether you're agnostic, you're sitting on the fence, or you were or you felt fall away from the faith to engage in honest intellectual conversation.

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Because I believe that the church should have those answers.

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Because, you know, Jesus is the truth and we should always be able to present the truth in a respectful manner.

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And then the second part of it is to offer information to the Christian that may be able to utilize some of this information in their sphere of influence and sharing.

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The Gospel of Jesus.

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Yes.

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Excellent.

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And I see, I understand in your content creation space that you deal a lot with current events, Christian apologetics, and really you have a value in presenting both sides of an argument, don't you?

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Enabling the listener to reach a conclusion.

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We're really in a post truth time, aren't we?

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Exactly.

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I almost draw the equation of, you know, if I'm presenting something to you and you need to make a purchase as a.

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As an owner or somebody who may have something invested in it, you need to make an informed decision.

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And by that, you know, I like to present both sides of the argument and, or bring up different areas.

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So in other words, that I'm not saying or relying solely upon the Bible and the word of God, but I'm bringing other aspects into it, whether it's archeological evidence, eyewitness accounts, historical accounts, plays into, comes into being because inevitably the listener needs to make a decision.

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And I kind of equate them as being the jury.

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And, you know, so I'm presenting the case of the Lord Jesus Christ humbly, and let them make that decision, whether this is truth or not.

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Yeah, very good.

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Let me read this passage out of Genesis 6:1:4.

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And then I'd just like to ask.

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You about our popular culture today.

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Seems to be interested in this topic by some of the movies and television shows that they're creating.

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And then we'll come back and really dive into this topic.

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Okay.

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Genesis 6:1:4.

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It came about when mankind began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them.

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That the sons of God saw that the daughters of mankind were beautiful, and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

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Then the Lord said, my spirit will not remain with man forever because he is also flesh.

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Nevertheless, his days shall be 120 years.

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The Nephilim were on the earth in those days.

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And also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of mankind and they bore children to them.

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Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

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I think the word Nephilim from the Hebrew, am I right in that it means fallen ones and that some translations, including the Septuagint, the old Greek translation, translates that word as giants.

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Correct.

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Now, what do we have happening in.

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Popular culture today with any movies or shows that are being produced, which show these hybrid creatures or these whatever.

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Part animal or maybe part animal, part human or part human, part angel creatures?

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Absolutely.

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The movies.

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But I know some of the more popular ones could be Wolverine and that and that franchise.

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And you know, you see them drawing, it's.

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They kind of pin it as good versus Evil.

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And, you know, they have their.

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Part man, part animal, part.

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You know, they have different attributes that are not natural to mankind.

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And I think, you know, you see that in certainly in Hollywood and the movies, but you see also a lot of that television as well.

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Yeah.

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And sometimes it seems like the world is more open to seeing things through a spiritual lens or a supernatural lens than much of the North American church.

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Is that an overstatement or.

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I don't want to overstate.

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No, I think that's fair.

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I think the.

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Well, I'll speak specifically as an American, that we're bombarded with media and information, and I would say almost a sensory overload dulls our senses into what is critical thinking and kind of thwarting our ability to process information correctly.

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And I think that's by intent and that's by design.

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Yeah.

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Now, there's this verse in Genesis 3:15, which I think theologians call the proto Evangelium, or the first mention of the Gospel.

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First mention of the Gospel of the kingdom.

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God comes on the scene immediately after the fall of Adam and Eve and says.

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He's speaking now to Satan through the serpent.

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He says, I will make enemies of you and the woman and of your offspring and her descendant or her seed.

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He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel, the foot.

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Again, the first mention, really a prophecy.

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Right.

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A Messianic.

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It's the first prophecy in the Bible.

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Absolutely.

Speaker C: 00:16:21

Okay.

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Genesis 3:15.

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Now, Satan obviously heard this.

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I'm wondering if we need to imagine what he felt like when he heard this, what his reaction may have been.

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And you're contending now, as we pick it up in Genesis 6, that Satan attempted to penetrate the human bloodline or the Messianic bloodline and corrupt it and stop this from happening.

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Is that correct?

Speaker D: 00:16:47

That's correct.

Speaker D: 00:16:48

You know, I think you will see that throughout the Bible that Satan attempted to thwart the bloodline leading up to Jesus.

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But I would just kind of shift the paradigm, if you will, for a second where Genesis 3:15, this is really the Lord giving Satan his death sentence.

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Okay.

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It is the first prophecy in the Bible.

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And, you know, I think as Christians, we need to understand that Satan is obviously very much aware of who the Lord is, but he also also knows the Bible probably better than a lot of people.

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So he understands what that means.

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And this is a life and death situation for him.

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And if he can thwart this attempt, which is kind of silly if you think you're going to thwart the Lord, but nonetheless, if you're being under attack, you're going to do everything you can to fight whatever it is that that's attacking you.

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And if he can thwart this from happening, that means, in essence he is really causing the Lord's word to not be true and not be correct, which all bets are off at that point.

Speaker D: 00:17:58

So I see, in my opinion, that he began that stage by thwarting the bloodline leading up to the Messiah.

Speaker D: 00:18:08

And by that I mean, if you believe, as I do, that fallen angels went into the daughters of men and created this offspring, if you will, you're looking at the DNA that's a mutant DNA, that it's no longer human.

Speaker D: 00:18:25

It's part human and part angelic, and therefore it is not the creation of God.

Speaker D: 00:18:32

So God has not created these Nephilim, and that DNA is now infested potentially with.

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Into the.

Speaker D: 00:18:41

The bloodline of the human race.

Speaker C: 00:18:43

Yes, I understand.

Speaker C: 00:18:44

So take us through Genesis 6:1:4.

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Let's let the listener consider this.

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I've been about 95% on this just instinctively over the years.

Speaker C: 00:18:54

Plus there's some witness from the New Testament which I believe supports this interpretation.

Speaker C: 00:18:59

I understand there's three different models of interpretation of Genesis 6:1:4.

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Maybe you could briefly take us through that survey and then begin to give.

Speaker A: 00:19:08

Support to your view that these were.

Speaker C: 00:19:10

Angelic beings who came down and had relations with women.

Speaker D: 00:19:14

Well, I think the three theories we'll call them are that the fallen angels are the sons of God or that they came from a godly line of Seth.

Speaker D: 00:19:25

And then there's the aspect of the mythological past.

Speaker D: 00:19:29

You know, I'm paraphrasing, but those are the three that I believe you're alluding to.

Speaker D: 00:19:35

And I would contend that these fallen angels are the sons of God and the fallen sons of God.

Speaker D: 00:19:43

So you're going back to.

Speaker D: 00:19:47

I don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but let's just say at this point, before the fall of man, you had the fall of Satan.

Speaker C: 00:19:55

Yes.

Speaker D: 00:19:55

And so if you look at Genesis 6:4, it says there were Nephilim.

Speaker D: 00:20:02

And so the implication there is giants.

Speaker D: 00:20:05

And I'll just briefly go through what that means.

Speaker D: 00:20:09

Nephilim is fallen ones.

Speaker D: 00:20:11

It is a fallen spirit and their offspring.

Speaker D: 00:20:14

The root word is nephal.

Speaker D: 00:20:16

It means to be cast down, to fall away.

Speaker D: 00:20:20

Then there is Havagibion, which is the mighty ones.

Speaker D: 00:20:24

And when this was translated into Greek, it is gigantes, or Hispanics would know it as gigantes.

Speaker D: 00:20:31

So they're giants.

Speaker D: 00:20:32

And there's so many records in human history of recordings of these giants.

Speaker D: 00:20:38

Then if you continue, it says in the earth, in those days and also after that, when the sons of God, so we have Nephilim, sons of God, those are the fallen angels, came into the daughters of men, human women.

Speaker D: 00:20:53

So right there in that, in that opening verse, there's a clear distinction between what the nephilim are, what the sons of God are, and what the daughters of men are.

Speaker D: 00:21:03

So you have the three classifications?

Speaker D: 00:21:07

Well, I'll say part human, part angelic.

Speaker D: 00:21:10

Then sons of God being angelic and daughters of men being human women.

Speaker C: 00:21:14

Okay, so this was the early view, wasn't it, of the early church, in the early centuries of church history and even late Judaism, before the incarnation of Christ, Wasn't this the dominant view, that these were angels who came?

Speaker D: 00:21:29

That's correct.

Speaker D: 00:21:30

Yeah, that.

Speaker D: 00:21:30

That is correct.

Speaker C: 00:21:31

And then maybe later, beginning with Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and you know, you could look up maybe a modern theologian today who would believe that this is the godly line of Seth.

Speaker C: 00:21:41

It's referring to the godly line of Seth who came in and married the daughters of Cain.

Speaker C: 00:21:45

Right.

Speaker C: 00:21:45

Two different lines.

Speaker C: 00:21:46

And that God was displeased with that.

Speaker C: 00:21:49

But there are also theologians today.

Speaker C: 00:21:52

I was amazed, Mark.

Speaker C: 00:21:53

I.

Speaker C: 00:21:54

You know, sometimes when I'm looking at a topic initially, what I'll do is grab three mainline study Bibles and I'll just look at study.

Speaker C: 00:22:01

I was amazed at both, all three.

Speaker C: 00:22:03

The John MacArthur Study Bible, which is quite scholarly.

Speaker C: 00:22:06

The Spirit Filled Life Bible.

Speaker C: 00:22:08

Jack Hafer, General editor Again, scholarly.

Speaker C: 00:22:11

And the, what is it, the Nelson New King James Version study Bible.

Speaker C: 00:22:19

All three held to the ancient view.

Speaker C: 00:22:22

I was a little shocked.

Speaker C: 00:22:23

You know, I was expecting that there would be this more modern view of Seth.

Speaker C: 00:22:31

But okay, so angels, and we're going back to the Hebrew word Nephilim.

Speaker C: 00:22:35

And then this phrase sons of God appears, what, five or six times in the Old Testament.

Speaker A: 00:22:44

Am I right about that?

Speaker D: 00:22:46

I know you see that throughout the Book of Job, Luke, and I don't know whether we'll talk about this or not.

Speaker D: 00:22:53

Even though it is not canonized, but the Book of Enoch makes reference to it.

Speaker D: 00:23:00

And depending upon what you're reading, it can mean something else.

Speaker D: 00:23:08

In other words, sons of God could be a reference to Adam because Adam was a son of God.

Speaker D: 00:23:16

He was created by God.

Speaker D: 00:23:18

But then we are called the sons of Adam.

Speaker C: 00:23:20

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: 00:23:21

So like in job 1, 6, 7, for example, there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them.

Speaker C: 00:23:30

Well, this is the exact Hebrew phrase, obviously referring to some form of spiritual beings or angels.

Speaker C: 00:23:36

Again, in Job two.

Speaker C: 00:23:37

One again, there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them.

Speaker C: 00:23:43

And then in Job 38, 7, when God is confronting Job and talking about creation, you know, where were you when.

Speaker A: 00:23:50

I did all this?

Speaker C: 00:23:52

That whole conversation that God had with Job when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy, that's at the creation process.

Speaker C: 00:24:02

Again, angels.

Speaker C: 00:24:03

I don't know how you feel about Daniel 3.

Speaker C: 00:24:04

It's an Aramaic passage, but when Nebuchadnezzar looks into the furnace, he sees four men instead of three, untied and walking about.

Speaker C: 00:24:13

And the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

Speaker C: 00:24:16

Do you see that fourth one as a christophany, an appearance of Christ, or would you possibly?

Speaker D: 00:24:19

I do.

Speaker D: 00:24:22

I see that as Jesus.

Speaker C: 00:24:23

Okay, all right.

Speaker C: 00:24:24

Refers there to, as that same Hebrew phrase, sons of God.

Speaker C: 00:24:28

So it seems to me, the research I have done and I have looked at some credible sources on this, it seems that unanimously, this particular Hebrew phrase, sons of God unanimously refers to angels in Old Testament passages.

Speaker C: 00:24:45

Okay.

Speaker C: 00:24:45

Maybe with the exception of this Daniel 3 passage.

Speaker D: 00:24:48

And again, that's up for interpretation.

Speaker D: 00:24:52

I can't say that definitively and it's really a topic for another time.

Speaker D: 00:24:56

But the way you.

Speaker D: 00:24:57

I have my reasons for believing.

Speaker C: 00:24:59

I've always believed that was a christophany too.

Speaker C: 00:25:01

And so it's not a human, that's for sure.

Speaker C: 00:25:03

Right.

Speaker C: 00:25:03

I mean, it's not a, it's not a son of Seth or any other kind of human.

Speaker C: 00:25:07

Okay, so you have that argument of the Hebrew and you know what, Mark, I wanted to get your thought on this because I think you're a full on believer in an exegetical approach to Scripture and interpreting it through like a historical, cultural, grammatical, sort of a hermeneutic.

Speaker C: 00:25:25

Right.

Speaker C: 00:25:27

And soundness, a very high view of Scripture.

Speaker C: 00:25:30

I also want to make the case, you know, Jesus said the Holy Spirit will teach you all things.

Speaker C: 00:25:35

He will bring you into truth.

Speaker C: 00:25:37

And you know, John says in one John, I was just reading it the other day in my own reading that you all have an anointing from the Holy One and you know, all things.

Speaker A: 00:25:46

I would really love to just see.

Speaker C: 00:25:48

A blending of a historical, grammatical, cultural interpretation as a hermeneutic, but also blending it with a full on engagement with the Holy Spirit.

Speaker C: 00:26:00

Right.

Speaker C: 00:26:01

To help us, to know by revelation, to illuminate the Scriptures to us.

Speaker C: 00:26:08

And so I would just Encourage the listener to just don't merely do inductive Bible study and not give credence to the person of the Holy Spirit to help bring illumination.

Speaker C: 00:26:22

Any thoughts on that?

Speaker C: 00:26:23

Sort of a sidebar, but any thoughts on that?

Speaker D: 00:26:25

Yeah, I think it's so important to, you know, we prayed and we asked for the Holy Spirit to guide this conversation.

Speaker D: 00:26:35

And there's so much that we know, but, you know, the Lord is just so rich, so vast, so deep.

Speaker D: 00:26:42

And I'm sure you understand this where if you look at a scripture and you see it maybe 10 times and then all of a sudden a year later you see another side of it.

Speaker C: 00:26:51

Absolutely.

Speaker D: 00:26:51

And that illumination comes from Holy Spirit.

Speaker D: 00:26:55

Scripture also shows us that the angels circle the throne room of the Lord and each time they circle, they see something new.

Speaker D: 00:27:02

Like the Lord is so fresh, so clear that his revelation and the depth of which is available to us.

Speaker D: 00:27:11

We would be foolish, in my opinion, not to engage the Holy Spirit and ask him for revelation.

Speaker D: 00:27:18

Ask him to shift our paradigm and kind of see things or read things the way from his perspective.

Speaker C: 00:27:25

Absolutely.

Speaker C: 00:27:26

I mean, those angels, how can they keep crying out holy, holy, holy, like forever?

Speaker C: 00:27:31

Because they keep seeing another facet right of God.

Speaker C: 00:27:35

That's what you're saying?

Speaker D: 00:27:36

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Speaker C: 00:27:38

They can't help it.

Speaker C: 00:27:39

And it's like that with.

Speaker C: 00:27:41

With the extraordinary nature of the Bible, inspired God breathed, and always rooting ourselves in sound scholarship.

Speaker C: 00:27:50

You're always going to see difference in scholarship, of course, different interpretations.

Speaker C: 00:27:55

But if you can find a strong dose of scholarship and it resonates with what you feel the Holy Spirit might be saying to you, I think you're in a safe space there with deep Bible study.

Speaker C: 00:28:08

At least that's how I see it.

Speaker D: 00:28:10

I agree.

Speaker C: 00:28:10

Now, what about the New Testament witness?

Speaker C: 00:28:12

Why don't you talk about the passage in Jude and also second Peter 2?

Speaker D: 00:28:17

Sure.

Speaker D: 00:28:18

I believe you're alluding to Jude 6, where it says the angels who did not keep their proper domain but left their own abode, he has reserved an everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Speaker D: 00:28:33

So this would be an account to the sons of God, the fallen angels.

Speaker D: 00:28:37

But what's interesting here is it says left their proper domain, although we don't necessarily understand exactly, or at least I know what that means is.

Speaker D: 00:28:47

But let's just say that they have an assigned area of which they can operate from, even though that this is after the fall of Satan and they've defied that and left.

Speaker D: 00:29:00

And the implication is they went down to Mount Hebron and engaged in fornication with women and basically raped them because of that sin he has put them into.

Speaker D: 00:29:13

And later it goes into Peter put them in Tartarus, which is, let's call it, a level below what we would associate as hell.

Speaker D: 00:29:21

And then Second Peter four, and I believe this is what you're alluding to, and if not, you can certainly clarify me.

Speaker D: 00:29:29

It says, for if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell or Tartarus and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved for judgment, which inevitably is the great White Throne judgment.

Speaker D: 00:29:44

And I think that's what you're pointing to.

Speaker D: 00:29:45

Yes, there you have New Testament account of what was revealed in Genesis, but it's kind of a little bit of a further elaboration specifically, really from Jude, where he says they left their proper domain.

Speaker C: 00:30:01

Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:30:01

And even back in the Jude passage, the verse, you read verse six, and then it says in verse seven, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they, in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Speaker C: 00:30:21

Now, the new American standard has the word angels, I guess italicized.

Speaker C: 00:30:24

The translators have added that they believe that's what it's referring to.

Speaker C: 00:30:28

Back to verse six, but what are your thoughts on verse seven in Jude as it builds upon verse six?

Speaker D: 00:30:36

Read that passage again, verse seven.

Speaker D: 00:30:38

I don't have that in front of me.

Speaker D: 00:30:39

I just want to make sure.

Speaker C: 00:30:40

Well, I'll start with verse six, if that's good.

Speaker C: 00:30:44

Angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper dwelling place.

Speaker C: 00:30:48

These he has kept in eternal restraints under darkness for the judgment of the great day, comma, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they, in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Speaker C: 00:31:08

I don't know if the strange flesh is a reference to the homosexuality in Sodom and Gomorrah or if it's also.

Speaker D: 00:31:14

Well, it could certainly point to that, but at the very least it points to a sexual perversion.

Speaker D: 00:31:20

And what I would say is, you look at, I believe it's Luke when the disciples ask him, what will be the signs of your coming in the last days?

Speaker D: 00:31:30

And he says, it will be as in the days of Noah and as in the days of Lot.

Speaker D: 00:31:34

So I really think that's kind of.

Speaker C: 00:31:36

What the statement by Jesus also includes.

Speaker A: 00:31:39

Lot.

Speaker D: 00:31:39

Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:31:40

Okay.

Speaker C: 00:31:41

Okay.

Speaker C: 00:31:41

That's a fresh reminder for me.

Speaker D: 00:31:43

I believe it's Luke.

Speaker D: 00:31:44

There's two passages in the Gospels and I'm going to say Matthew and Luke.

Speaker D: 00:31:48

Yeah, Luke 17.

Speaker D: 00:31:50

Okay, you know what?

Speaker C: 00:31:52

On the show notes page, we're going to put all these scriptures and some helpful links to dive further.

Speaker C: 00:31:57

We always like to put a go deeper section.

Speaker C: 00:31:59

So listening to this, you're going to have that on the show notes page.

Speaker C: 00:32:02

Okay.

Speaker C: 00:32:04

Take some time with this and study.

Speaker C: 00:32:05

You know, I mean, you're not going to do this in like one 60 minute session of study.

Speaker C: 00:32:10

But if you open up a thread of deeper Bible study on certain themes like this, it could be amazing.

Speaker C: 00:32:15

It could really be amazing.

Speaker C: 00:32:17

So even in that instance in Sodom and Gomorrah, one scholar, one authority said that in Genesis 6, you have the angels initiating and going after human flesh.

Speaker C: 00:32:28

In Sodom and Gomorrah, there is almost an inversion of it.

Speaker C: 00:32:31

You have the humans, at least in the account there, wanting to have sexual relations with the angels who had come to visit Lot.

Speaker C: 00:32:38

Right?

Speaker D: 00:32:38

Yep, that's exactly right.

Speaker C: 00:32:40

They were ready to tear the door off to get after it, if I could put it that way.

Speaker C: 00:32:43

Wow.

Speaker C: 00:32:44

Okay, so then in second Peter four, you're saying that God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell, committed them to pits of darkness, held for judgment, and did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah.

Speaker C: 00:32:57

All of this just precipitated Noah's flood, right?

Speaker C: 00:33:02

That's correct.

Speaker C: 00:33:03

And then verse six, he mentions Sodom and Gomorrah.

Speaker C: 00:33:05

He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example of what is coming for the ungodly.

Speaker C: 00:33:14

Amazing.

Speaker C: 00:33:15

So some New Testament witness or support for this interpretation of Genesis 6, 1, 4, linking it back to Genesis 3:15.

Speaker C: 00:33:25

Also looking at how the Hebrew phrase sons of God is used throughout the Old Testament.

Speaker C: 00:33:30

Now, what about Enoch?

Speaker D: 00:33:31

And I would just add New Testament, but plus Jesus saying it as well.

Speaker C: 00:33:36

The premier part of the New Testament witness.

Speaker C: 00:33:39

Right.

Speaker C: 00:33:39

Jesus statement, again, quote that verse.

Speaker C: 00:33:43

Quote that statement, if you would, Mark.

Speaker D: 00:33:44

About the days of Noah, Luke: 17:26

Speaker D: 00:33:49

Just as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man.

Speaker D: 00:33:54

People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up until the day that Noah entered the ark.

Speaker D: 00:34:00

Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

Speaker D: 00:34:03

It was the same in the days of Lot.

Speaker D: 00:34:05

People were eating and drinking Buying and selling, planting and building.

Speaker D: 00:34:09

But the day lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Speaker C: 00:34:16

Okay, so the days of Noah, you have every sort of sin going on.

Speaker C: 00:34:20

Right.

Speaker C: 00:34:20

Covetousness, murder, hatred.

Speaker C: 00:34:22

And also this egregious sin in this interpretation of angels coming down, crossing a barrier and having sexual relations with women.

Speaker C: 00:34:36

And we will talk about how this can happen, like physically, what is the reproductive system.

Speaker C: 00:34:41

We can touch on this because I know people might be wondering about that.

Speaker C: 00:34:45

And then also mentioning Sodom and Gomorrah later with Abraham after the flood.

Speaker C: 00:34:51

Tremendous sin going on, homosexuality.

Speaker C: 00:34:53

And again, this instance in that account that we have to think about, they are going after those angels.

Speaker C: 00:34:59

Humans are wanting to have sexual relations with with those angels.

Speaker C: 00:35:03

Amazing.

Speaker C: 00:35:05

So now, what about Enoch?

Speaker C: 00:35:06

Enoch is quoted in Jude.

Speaker A: 00:35:08

Right.

Speaker C: 00:35:08

Is Enoch quoted anywhere else in the New Testament?

Speaker D: 00:35:12

Well, it's mentioned in Hebrew.

Speaker D: 00:35:14

So let's.

Speaker D: 00:35:15

So New Testament, Jude 1 Jude.

Speaker D: 00:35:19

That would be it.

Speaker D: 00:35:20

It says also about these, that Enoch the seventh from Adam prophesied saying, behold, the Lord come with ten thousands of his holy ones.

Speaker D: 00:35:28

So Jude is quoting the Book of Enoch.

Speaker C: 00:35:30

Yep.

Speaker D: 00:35:31

Then Hebrews 11, 5 just alludes to Enoch where it says, by faith, Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death.

Speaker C: 00:35:39

Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:35:39

And it gives witness to him that he was pleasing to God there.

Speaker A: 00:35:42

Correct.

Speaker A: 00:35:43

11, 5.

Speaker C: 00:35:44

And God translated him.

Speaker C: 00:35:45

It's really a pre foreshadowing of the Rapture.

Speaker C: 00:35:48

Right?

Speaker D: 00:35:49

Correct.

Speaker C: 00:35:50

Okay, so then Enoch.

Speaker C: 00:35:51

Enoch talks in quite, quite some detail about Genesis 6, 1, 4 and what he believes happened there.

Speaker D: 00:35:59

Absolutely.

Speaker D: 00:36:00

Enoch.

Speaker D: 00:36:00

So the Book of Enoch goes into great detail.

Speaker A: 00:36:12

Friend.

Speaker A: 00:36:12

Here's that promised audio Excerpt from Dr. Hugh Ross of reasons to believe.

Speaker A: 00:36:17

Who wore the Nephilim.

Speaker E: 00:36:19

Now, some people would say, though, there's some weird things happening in Genesis chapters one through eleven.

Speaker E: 00:36:25

One of those things is the mention of these mysterious people called the Nephilim in Genesis chapter six.

Speaker E: 00:36:33

So if you believe that's real history, start to walk us through.

Speaker E: 00:36:38

What do you think is happening there?

Speaker B: 00:36:39

Well, like with any controversial issue in the Bible, you want to look at all 66 books, not just what you see in Genesis 6.

Speaker B: 00:36:47

And it turns out this six subject pops up again and again as you look at other books of Scripture.

Speaker B: 00:36:52

So it's something I've done in navigating Genesis to actually provide the reader with all the relevant passages and the rest of Scripture and basically challenge them to read them and draw their own conclusion.

Speaker E: 00:37:03

So who do you think the Nephilim are?

Speaker E: 00:37:06

Because they kind of are tied into the flood account with Noah, they happen right before that, before we're introduced to Noah.

Speaker E: 00:37:16

So what do you think's going on there?

Speaker B: 00:37:18

Well, it says in Genesis 6 that they were present before the flood and after the flood.

Speaker B: 00:37:23

So there's two inputs of the Nephilim going on.

Speaker B: 00:37:27

And what you see in Genesis 6 is that they're the result of the sons of God visiting the daughters of men.

Speaker B: 00:37:34

And evidently this was happening before the flood and happened after the flood.

Speaker B: 00:37:38

As you go on in the rest the of of the chronologies of the Bible, you see, they show up again often with different names, like the Anakites or the Rephaim and Nephilim.

Speaker B: 00:37:47

They're all interchangeable terms.

Speaker B: 00:37:49

And what you notice is the last appearance you see of them is in the King David.

Speaker B: 00:37:56

King David's mighty men wiped out the last of the Nephilim.

Speaker B: 00:37:59

They're tall.

Speaker B: 00:38:00

I mean, the shortest one we see mentioned is Goliath.

Speaker B: 00:38:03

And using the shortest possible cube cubit in Hebrew measure, he's at least 9ft, 9 inches tall.

Speaker B: 00:38:11

Then you got the King of Bashan, who had a bed that was at least 13ft long, made out of iron.

Speaker B: 00:38:17

So these were big people.

Speaker B: 00:38:19

The other thing you notice is no mention of women.

Speaker B: 00:38:21

They're all men, and they have birth defects like six fingers and six toes.

Speaker B: 00:38:27

We also know they're all evil.

Speaker B: 00:38:29

None of them are good, but they were mighty men in battle, and they were a threat to the emerging Hebrew nation and Hebrew religion.

Speaker B: 00:38:40

So that's why God set up a procedure where they could be eliminated from the human race.

Speaker B: 00:38:46

Go to Jude six.

Speaker B: 00:38:48

Jude six talks about a subcategory of evil angels, the fallen angels, the demons who left their estate.

Speaker B: 00:38:56

And because they left their estate, they were consigned to the abyss, a place that the demons don't like at all is what's quite clear when you read the Gospels.

Speaker B: 00:39:05

Every time Jesus cast out demons, it don't send us to the abyss.

Speaker B: 00:39:09

Jude is indicating it's a special place for demons who cross the line.

Speaker E: 00:39:14

Well, it's a very interesting hypothesis, and I know that there are other competitors, but this isn't the only one.

Speaker E: 00:39:21

What would be your recommendation as people study Genesis 6 for themselves, how to think this through?

Speaker B: 00:39:27

Well, what I did in navigating Genesis is lay out the three predominant hypotheses, give people the scripture passages and tell them, read these passages and draw your own conclusion.

Speaker A: 00:39:37

You can go to the show notes page@jesussmart.com giants if you listen to this podcast, as soon as it goes live on the feeds.

Speaker A: 00:39:46

It may take a few hours for.

Speaker C: 00:39:48

That page to go live, so please.

Speaker A: 00:39:50

Be patient with that.

Speaker A: 00:39:50

Come back to it@jesussmart.com giants you can learn more about Mark Russick.

Speaker A: 00:39:57

You can see the video by Dr. Hugh Ross, a few other videos there links to other resources, scriptures to go deeper.

Speaker A: 00:40:04

That's your call to action.

Speaker A: 00:40:05

Okay, go to jesussmart.com giants stay connected with the podcast.

Speaker A: 00:40:12

We're going to have part two of this conversation with Mark in our next episode and you can stay connected by going to jesussmart.com we're looking to create even more digital pathways and resources there to inspire, to inform, to equip, and to do our best to follow Christ and play our role in helping to.

Speaker C: 00:40:34

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Speaker A: 00:40:36

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Speaker C: 00:40:41

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Speaker A: 00:40:42

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Speaker A: 00:40:46

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Speaker A: 00:40:51

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Speaker A: 00:40:55

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Speaker A: 00:40:59

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Speaker A: 00:41:01

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Speaker A: 00:41:03

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Speaker A: 00:41:07

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Speaker A: 00:41:13

He's the most brilliant person in the universe, the most brilliant in cosmic history.

Speaker A: 00:41:19

The most brilliant person to walk the planet.

Speaker A: 00:41:21

The future belongs to him.

Speaker A: 00:41:22

He knows how life works best right now.

Speaker A: 00:41:25

And that horizon that's coming, it's owned entirely in totality by the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Speaker A: 00:41:32

And so let's align with that right now.

Speaker D: 00:41:35

Wow.